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Essays

elvish names continued

Now, a lot of this is just my opinion, gleaned from what I interpret from the HoME. Unlike some of those people in this fandom who play at being a scholar (not a slight at anyone on my journal), I will readily admit that I am not one, just an avid reader, but at least I'll cite my references.

I'm not that sticky on translations, because names don't seem to always demand a translation, like the name Orophin.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with that. Names, particuarly among the Eldar, were extremely important. An entire section of the "Laws and Customs of the Eldar" was devoted solely to the significance of naming. Names had meaning and power and, in many cases, were rooted in foresight. So, if names had meaning, then they can be translated.

The muse of mine who is Orophin is a Finwion, and is Sindarinized from Orofinwe because he was born before the ruling of Thingol and it just means 'stone of finwe'. That's as close to a translation as I've come to for him.

Orophin probably derives from the primitive roots ORO- meaning "high" and PHIN- meaning "skill". His name is likely to be Telerin in origin, since Lórien was originally settled by those among the Teleri who were too daunted by the Misty Mountains. (UT, "History of Galadriel and Celeborn")

The House of Finwë is well-documented throughout the HoME. Now, if you meant that you write this in an AU setting, then more power to you. I'm all for AU, and dabble there myself. But I just want to point out that there is absolutely no canonical basis for this particular lineage of Orophin. (If he were, incidentally, his name would have to be Orofin, since the stem PHIN- evolved to FIN- in Noldorin/Quenya. [LR, "Etymologies"])

I can believe that if there are different translations for differing languages then they very much can be separate Rumils because the initial meanings would be different and the meaning is more important it seems like when it comes to the Eldalie.

As I tried to show, Rúmil does not have a Quenya translation unless you bastardize Rúmilca, and Quenya names rarely just drop letters. I guess I wasn't clear about my meaning on that one.

There are more languages than Sindarin and Quenya, and I don't think Rumil was specified as a Noldorin elf in Aman -- unless you know the places where he was specified as such?

"Even after Eriol (or Aelfwine) had fallen away, Rúmil remained, the great Noldorin Sage of Tirion...." (BoLT1, "The Music of the Ainur")

There are several other references to Rúmil of Tirion being of the Noldolie elsewhere in that chapter, as well. Tirion was a Noldorin city, as stated in the Silm. Additionally, in MR, he is referred to repeatedly as "one of the great loremasters of the Eldar", which is a title traditionally applied to the Noldor. Moreover, MR goes on to say that that the Tengwar was developed by the Noldor, so since Rúmil developed the Tengwar, he must necessarily have been Noldorin.

I'm kind of curious as to where you got the Quenyan translation from, just as a fan of linguistics.

I tend to use Council of Elrond for my dictionary needs. I've yet to find anything canonical to contradict any of their wordlists. And if there is ever a question or confusion regarding CoE, I always double-check back with Ardalambion as well as my hard copy of the Etymologies.

I have to point out that Lorien wasn't just Silvan elves

Prior to the destruction of Eregion in 1697 Second Age, it pretty much was, actually.

"The people of Lórien were even then [i.e. at the time of the loss of Amroth] much as they were at the end of the Third Age: Silvan Elves in origin, but ruled by princes of Sindarin descent (as was the realm of Thranduil in the northern parts of Mirkwood; though whether Thranduil and Amroth were akin is not now known.) They had however been much mingled with Noldor (of Sindarin speech), who passed through Moria after the destruction of Eregion by Sauron in the year 1697 of the Second Age." (UT, "History of Galadriel and Celeborn")

As noted in LotR, they spoke Sindarin with an accent strange to Frodo as a result of their long isolation from the Sindar and Noldor. They no doubt also had words and concepts that evolved from their ancient Telerin roots, which would be enough to confuse a casual student of Sindarin like Frodo.

(which is a definition for a way of life ie. Woodsie Elves pretty much)

"Silvan" is a derivation of the English word "Sylvan" meaning "those who frequent groves or woods". They did have an Elvish name -- Tawarwaith -- along with their own dialect that differed greatly from Sindarin, as those fleeing Eregion quickly learned. So, Tolkien's use of it really wasn't as a "lifestyle" but to distinguish them from the main Elven races.

It's my mistake equating the Silvan with the Nandor as I did in my previous post. They are close kin of the Nandor, but are not Nandor. The Nandor actually referred to a very specific group of Elves that were ultimately found in only three places: the Green-elves of Ossiriand, the vale of the Anduin, and the mouth of the Anduin. (UT, "History of Galadriel and Celeborn") By the time we find Rúmil in the Third Age, the first of these groups had no doubt been all but wiped out by the destruction of Ossiriand in the Changing of the World; the second probably integrated into either Lórien or Mirkwood out of necessity as the Shadow grew; and the third were probably the progenitors of the nobility of Dol Amroth, particuarly Imrahil, and had likely long ago sailed to Aman, as Imrahil states that none of his people had seen Elves in his realm in a very long time. (RK, "The Last Debate")

So, Rúmil and his brothers may have had Nandorin origins, but probably referred to themselves as Silvan.

but Nandor and Dana and Vanyar and Noldor and Sinda and so on and so forth. It was a refuge from other places, for other elves.

Danas is simply the Nandorin word for Nandor. Every reference I can find to the Danas mentions that the term was replaced by Nandor in most texts. It was a reference to the fact that Dân (or Nano, as he was also known) was the Telerin leader who led the Nandor away from the Great Journey. (MR, "Annals of Aman")

Also, the only time the Vanyar ever stepped onto Middle-earth after the Great Journey was as part of the Host of the Valar during the War of Wrath, and it is explicitly stated that every single one of them returned to Aman afterwards. (Silm, "The Voyage of Eãrendil")

Vanyar have golden hair if I remember correctly, and that's what one elf is described as having in Lorien.

While the Vanyar do primarily have golden hair, there were most likely Sindar with gold hair as well, since the designation was simply given to those Elves who settled in Belariand rather than complete the journey to Aman. There would have been a mixture of Vanyar, Noldor, and Teleri that made up the original Sindar, so their hair color would not have been as monochromatic as those of the the three main Elven races.

Many dark elves are said to have silver hair (I think?). Though it drives me a little crazy how Tolkien had an easy time making them as homogenous as the Japanese with little or no genetic mutations.

The Teleri were primarily silver-haired, which is why some of the stories of Galadriel and Celeborn's origins have Celeborn being Telerin in origin, because of his silver hair. Since the Nandor (and, by extention, the Silvan) were offshoots of the Teleri, they were probably predominantly silver-haired as well, at least until the influx of Sindar and Noldor fleeing the ruins of Eregion.

But knowing HASA I'm sure someone's already done some huge essay on all of this.

A completely off-topic comment here, but I read the "essays" on HASA (all 10 of them) and find them to be sorely lacking in any sort of original thinking or conclusions. They are primarily only concerned with parroting back the texts of other books about Tolkien's works and rarely (in most cases) refer to the source material itself, except by association. Often throughout them, opinion is presented as fact and given with no supporting documentation.

I won't say that my writing style is likely to be much more coherent or likely to pass a standard college literature course, but then again, I don't claim to write "critical essays" -- just rants based in what is clearly defined as my conclusions based on my personal interpretation. *shrugs* I have a list of issues with HASA, so it's best for me not to get started with that.

"In conclusion, ladies and jellyspoons..."

Tolkien was primarily a linguist. He developed the languages first, and then wrote the histories around them. It is fair to say that the languages of Middle-earth are the most important aspect of the world he created. This is a big reason why I am such a language cop -- to misuse, misrepresent, or mistreat the languages of Middle-earth is to disrespect the entire core of Tolkien's universe.

---

I've been to a lot of places and have found absolutely no reference to 'phin' anywhere, where on earth do you find this?

It's in the Etymologies in LR.

Dol Amroth nobility having elven blood, is from Mithrellas, who was in turn from Lothlorien as part of Nimrodel's party, which makes me very much think that the blood is silvan blood - just straight dark elf.

Regardless of that, it is clear that some of the Nandor did dwell in the area of what later became Dol Amroth, since it lies at the mouth of the Anduin, and UT says that some of the Nandor eventually settled there.

Just that I know that you can have a Sindarin with gold hair, I don't know why you'd think I'd believe otherwise o.O

Your exact words were "Vanyar have golden hair if I remember correctly, and that's what one elf is described as having in Lorien." This implied to me that you were saying that there were Vanyar in Lórien, and I was trying to show how that was impossible.

The Sindarin thing, is something I heard from a good and respected friend -- unfortunately I think it's something travelling by mouth until it comes out but it's supposed to be before the end of the year, in a journal that releases bi-annually or something to that effect, I'm sorry but I forget the name, something like Elvish Linguistic Fellowship.

Oh, you're probably referring to Vinyar Tengwar (or something similar), which is an indepedent newsletter from a group not associated with the Tolkien estate, and who freely admit that their work is not true Sindarin but "Neo-Sindarin". It is non-canonical, and as such, I try to avoid it.

I don't get my history facts from anything but my books, and from Encyclopedia of Arda when I'm feeling rushed.

EoA, as most people will tell you, is very buggy and contains a lot of incomplete or downright incorrect information. It is not a comprehensive site and is constantly being revised and updated. It should not be considered as a replacement for owning the source material. (Not that I'm saying you use it as such.)

The only time I assume anything is when it looks anthropologically plausible etc and I never state it as fact (as yes the HASA essays which are few and far between, do, to an annoying degree).

Tolkien wasn't an anthropologist, though, so what may be plausible may not necessarily have been what he intended. I know nothing of anthropology or any related science; all I know is what I can read in the HoME, which is why I tried to give citations for all that I found.


	Disclaimer This site contains content of an adult nature, both in written and graphical versions. If you are under the age of consent in your city, state, country, or province, please click here and exit the site. Site Map home lotr fanfiction elvish rants inspiration artwork links Section Links Canon vs AU/Non-Canon Children and Music The Civil War Debunking Evil!Thranduil Elven Haircolor 101 Elvish Names 101 Elvish Names Continued Elven Population Elven Rebirth Fanon, Part One Free Speech Independence Day Bullshit Musings On The Movie "Supersize Me" The Mysterious Glorfindel Nazi Germany Symbols and Words Voting Rights Act Who Is Gildor Inglorion? Why Gay Christian Is Not An Oxymoron		Essays elvish names continued Now, a lot of this is just my opinion, gleaned from what I interpret from the HoME. Unlike some of those people in this fandom who play at being a scholar (not a slight at anyone on my journal), I will readily admit that I am not one, just an avid reader, but at least I'll cite my references. I'm not that sticky on translations, because names don't seem to always demand a translation, like the name Orophin. I'm afraid I have to disagree with that. Names, particuarly among the Eldar, were extremely important. An entire section of the "Laws and Customs of the Eldar" was devoted solely to the significance of naming. Names had meaning and power and, in many cases, were rooted in foresight. So, if names had meaning, then they can be translated. The muse of mine who is Orophin is a Finwion, and is Sindarinized from Orofinwe because he was born before the ruling of Thingol and it just means 'stone of finwe'. That's as close to a translation as I've come to for him. Orophin probably derives from the primitive roots ORO- meaning "high" and PHIN- meaning "skill". His name is likely to be Telerin in origin, since Lórien was originally settled by those among the Teleri who were too daunted by the Misty Mountains. (UT, "History of Galadriel and Celeborn") The House of Finwë is well-documented throughout the HoME. Now, if you meant that you write this in an AU setting, then more power to you. I'm all for AU, and dabble there myself. But I just want to point out that there is absolutely no canonical basis for this particular lineage of Orophin. (If he were, incidentally, his name would have to be Orofin, since the stem PHIN- evolved to FIN- in Noldorin/Quenya. [LR, "Etymologies"]) I can believe that if there are different translations for differing languages then they very much can be separate Rumils because the initial meanings would be different and the meaning is more important it seems like when it comes to the Eldalie. As I tried to show, Rúmil does not have a Quenya translation unless you bastardize Rúmilca, and Quenya names rarely just drop letters. I guess I wasn't clear about my meaning on that one. There are more languages than Sindarin and Quenya, and I don't think Rumil was specified as a Noldorin elf in Aman -- unless you know the places where he was specified as such? "Even after Eriol (or Aelfwine) had fallen away, Rúmil remained, the great Noldorin Sage of Tirion...." (BoLT1, "The Music of the Ainur") There are several other references to Rúmil of Tirion being of the Noldolie elsewhere in that chapter, as well. Tirion was a Noldorin city, as stated in the Silm. Additionally, in MR, he is referred to repeatedly as "one of the great loremasters of the Eldar", which is a title traditionally applied to the Noldor. Moreover, MR goes on to say that that the Tengwar was developed by the Noldor, so since Rúmil developed the Tengwar, he must necessarily have been Noldorin. I'm kind of curious as to where you got the Quenyan translation from, just as a fan of linguistics. I tend to use Council of Elrond for my dictionary needs. I've yet to find anything canonical to contradict any of their wordlists. And if there is ever a question or confusion regarding CoE, I always double-check back with Ardalambion as well as my hard copy of the Etymologies. I have to point out that Lorien wasn't just Silvan elves Prior to the destruction of Eregion in 1697 Second Age, it pretty much was, actually. "The people of Lórien were even then [i.e. at the time of the loss of Amroth] much as they were at the end of the Third Age: Silvan Elves in origin, but ruled by princes of Sindarin descent (as was the realm of Thranduil in the northern parts of Mirkwood; though whether Thranduil and Amroth were akin is not now known.) They had however been much mingled with Noldor (of Sindarin speech), who passed through Moria after the destruction of Eregion by Sauron in the year 1697 of the Second Age." (UT, "History of Galadriel and Celeborn") As noted in LotR, they spoke Sindarin with an accent strange to Frodo as a result of their long isolation from the Sindar and Noldor. They no doubt also had words and concepts that evolved from their ancient Telerin roots, which would be enough to confuse a casual student of Sindarin like Frodo. (which is a definition for a way of life ie. Woodsie Elves pretty much) "Silvan" is a derivation of the English word "Sylvan" meaning "those who frequent groves or woods". They did have an Elvish name -- Tawarwaith -- along with their own dialect that differed greatly from Sindarin, as those fleeing Eregion quickly learned. So, Tolkien's use of it really wasn't as a "lifestyle" but to distinguish them from the main Elven races. It's my mistake equating the Silvan with the Nandor as I did in my previous post. They are close kin of the Nandor, but are not Nandor. The Nandor actually referred to a very specific group of Elves that were ultimately found in only three places: the Green-elves of Ossiriand, the vale of the Anduin, and the mouth of the Anduin. (UT, "History of Galadriel and Celeborn") By the time we find Rúmil in the Third Age, the first of these groups had no doubt been all but wiped out by the destruction of Ossiriand in the Changing of the World; the second probably integrated into either Lórien or Mirkwood out of necessity as the Shadow grew; and the third were probably the progenitors of the nobility of Dol Amroth, particuarly Imrahil, and had likely long ago sailed to Aman, as Imrahil states that none of his people had seen Elves in his realm in a very long time. (RK, "The Last Debate") So, Rúmil and his brothers may have had Nandorin origins, but probably referred to themselves as Silvan. but Nandor and Dana and Vanyar and Noldor and Sinda and so on and so forth. It was a refuge from other places, for other elves. Danas is simply the Nandorin word for Nandor. Every reference I can find to the Danas mentions that the term was replaced by Nandor in most texts. It was a reference to the fact that Dân (or Nano, as he was also known) was the Telerin leader who led the Nandor away from the Great Journey. (MR, "Annals of Aman") Also, the only time the Vanyar ever stepped onto Middle-earth after the Great Journey was as part of the Host of the Valar during the War of Wrath, and it is explicitly stated that every single one of them returned to Aman afterwards. (Silm, "The Voyage of Eãrendil") Vanyar have golden hair if I remember correctly, and that's what one elf is described as having in Lorien. While the Vanyar do primarily have golden hair, there were most likely Sindar with gold hair as well, since the designation was simply given to those Elves who settled in Belariand rather than complete the journey to Aman. There would have been a mixture of Vanyar, Noldor, and Teleri that made up the original Sindar, so their hair color would not have been as monochromatic as those of the the three main Elven races. Many dark elves are said to have silver hair (I think?). Though it drives me a little crazy how Tolkien had an easy time making them as homogenous as the Japanese with little or no genetic mutations. The Teleri were primarily silver-haired, which is why some of the stories of Galadriel and Celeborn's origins have Celeborn being Telerin in origin, because of his silver hair. Since the Nandor (and, by extention, the Silvan) were offshoots of the Teleri, they were probably predominantly silver-haired as well, at least until the influx of Sindar and Noldor fleeing the ruins of Eregion. But knowing HASA I'm sure someone's already done some huge essay on all of this. A completely off-topic comment here, but I read the "essays" on HASA (all 10 of them) and find them to be sorely lacking in any sort of original thinking or conclusions. They are primarily only concerned with parroting back the texts of other books about Tolkien's works and rarely (in most cases) refer to the source material itself, except by association. Often throughout them, opinion is presented as fact and given with no supporting documentation. I won't say that my writing style is likely to be much more coherent or likely to pass a standard college literature course, but then again, I don't claim to write "critical essays" -- just rants based in what is clearly defined as my conclusions based on my personal interpretation. shrugs I have a list of issues with HASA, so it's best for me not to get started with that. "In conclusion, ladies and jellyspoons..." Tolkien was primarily a linguist. He developed the languages first, and then wrote the histories around them. It is fair to say that the languages of Middle-earth are the most important aspect of the world he created. This is a big reason why I am such a language cop -- to misuse, misrepresent, or mistreat the languages of Middle-earth is to disrespect the entire core of Tolkien's universe. --- I've been to a lot of places and have found absolutely no reference to 'phin' anywhere, where on earth do you find this? It's in the Etymologies in LR. Dol Amroth nobility having elven blood, is from Mithrellas, who was in turn from Lothlorien as part of Nimrodel's party, which makes me very much think that the blood is silvan blood - just straight dark elf. Regardless of that, it is clear that some of the Nandor did dwell in the area of what later became Dol Amroth, since it lies at the mouth of the Anduin, and UT says that some of the Nandor eventually settled there. Just that I know that you can have a Sindarin with gold hair, I don't know why you'd think I'd believe otherwise o.O Your exact words were "Vanyar have golden hair if I remember correctly, and that's what one elf is described as having in Lorien." This implied to me that you were saying that there were Vanyar in Lórien, and I was trying to show how that was impossible. The Sindarin thing, is something I heard from a good and respected friend -- unfortunately I think it's something travelling by mouth until it comes out but it's supposed to be before the end of the year, in a journal that releases bi-annually or something to that effect, I'm sorry but I forget the name, something like Elvish Linguistic Fellowship. Oh, you're probably referring to Vinyar Tengwar (or something similar), which is an indepedent newsletter from a group not associated with the Tolkien estate, and who freely admit that their work is not true Sindarin but "Neo-Sindarin". It is non-canonical, and as such, I try to avoid it. I don't get my history facts from anything but my books, and from Encyclopedia of Arda when I'm feeling rushed. EoA, as most people will tell you, is very buggy and contains a lot of incomplete or downright incorrect information. It is not a comprehensive site and is constantly being revised and updated. It should not be considered as a replacement for owning the source material. (Not that I'm saying you use it as such.) The only time I assume anything is when it looks anthropologically plausible etc and I never state it as fact (as yes the HASA essays which are few and far between, do, to an annoying degree). Tolkien wasn't an anthropologist, though, so what may be plausible may not necessarily have been what he intended. I know nothing of anthropology or any related science; all I know is what I can read in the HoME, which is why I tried to give citations for all that I found.